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Template88

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1K and a decade of the Newgrounds Experience

Posted by Template88 - May 28th, 2021


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I started posting on Newgrounds in 2011, specifically in the Art Forum and that's primarily where I've focused my energy. Ten years have passed since then, this is a record of my experience. I joined the forums because at the time I thought that is where all the cool animators and artists I've seen post on Newgrounds came from and hang out. I couldn't really find a place in Deviantart that felt right, everyone was sequestered into their own themed groups or was too large to penetrate into. Conceptart.org still existed then and was too professional for me, as in I felt I was not good enough to post there. Furaffinity was also a no go for me because I am not a furry lmao. Tumblr seemed to work fine, but felt empty and disjointed. Thus, NEWGROUNDS! EVERYTHING BY EVERYONE!




I've met what I feel like is every single visual art based community member that posts on the forums on this site in that time. I've seen so many people come and go. The welcome was great, and there were many interesting and cool people posting but I noticed none of them were any of the people that I recognized as being Newgrounds artists or animators. I quickly realized that the "Newgrounds community" wasn't really on the site. It was on Twitter. For some reason I found this fact really discouraging. I felt almost betrayed for some reason. I joined the web chat thinking that maybe they were there. No one was there, and this was back when it was available to anyone. It made me feel like the community was abandoned to fend for itself. Rather than seeing this and just going somewhere else it made me see Newgrounds as some sort of underdog place. I felt like finally I found a community that I could be seen in and one I could actually change for the better. Moderation is done by volunteers, and they're few in number and spread out across the entire site. I tried to do what I felt would make the forum a better place. Mostly this took the form of offering candid advice and critique, making activity threads and just drawing free art for forum members. This went on for several years and I became more and more disillusioned with the state of the site. I felt like too many of the people in the forum were leaving and vanishing. I was one of the first adopters of Discord, immediately transitioning my art community to it from Skype (what a piece of crap Microsoft turned that into huh?) and started inviting the friends I had made on the forum into that community.

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I still wonder if that action might've degraded the forum even faster, but I cant imagine it would've made much of a difference in the end. Those people, for the most part are still with me, and basically none of them are here on the forums or even the site any longer. I tried to get some of the older art forum users to join as well, but they pined for their Tinychat days and preferred completely fragmenting rather than moving on to a new platform. I felt guilty, like I was stealing almost, my goal wasn't to create my own community but preserve and foster the art community on the forum.

The art forum felt to me like it died then, in those days. I gave up. The people around me were all leaving and nobody new seemed interested in interacting anymore. Everyone seemed to just be posting to oneself in their art thread. Its still broken to this day. The threads that are posted are all copies of the same threads, the same questions asked over and over because something as simple as an art forum specific FAQ sticky hasn't been implemented for no discernable reason (actually there is a reason, its that none of the staff care about curating the forums) but it isn't all on the staff. Even if there was a sticky, and there was somebody at the wheel the users aren't reading the threads, they aren't looking at what's in the threads, they're looking at the thread title, posting whatever they think the OP is about and never looking back and that's not something that can be fixed. Maybe it's that the concept of a forum is too outdated. If that's the case, and I do believe that is one of the problems with the community that should've been planned for in Newground's original heyday. When Newgrounds started asking for donations I got excited, because I thought that maybe the funds would allow for the site infrastructure to be updated. It was, kind of. It was modernized for mobile users which was a good call. The forum was left unchanged however, I think we have even less moderators/moderation than we did before. Since then nothing has really changed.

  • There was Jazza, who through some scheme tried to bring his youtube userbase to the forum through sponsored activites with actual prizes. A valid and honorable strategy that seemed to have no meaningful effect on the forum, as there was absolutely no overlap of interest. As soon as Jazza left the forum, it hemorrhaged all of those members.
  • There was the tumblr exodus, which saw a surge in new forum members followed immediately by instantly hemorrhaging them out because of how shite the forum engagement is.
  • There was Xin who successfully bridged the portal and the forum together for the first time that I had ever seen with a site wide event focused in the art forum. It brought many people from the portal into the forum for the first time ever, but lacking a reason to stay they all left.
  • The Friday Night Funkin influx, which is still in progress though seems to be petering out. New members, but very young. General is often leaking into the art forum. It remains to be seen what will occur from this.


Ultimately, I feel as long as the art portal and the art forum remain separate entities that have no relationship it will never function as a facet of the community. I ask you @tomfulp to consider fixing this flaw in the sites design.


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Incidents and complaints.


  • When I first joined the site Shadman was plastered all over the place. The flawed design of the art portal made it so that the highest viewed content was automatically promoted and that content was for the most part all pornographic in nature. This greatly displeased many people, mostly sfw artists, and it irreparably damaged the image of the site to me. Nothing was done about it. Nothing. I found myself constantly having to question why the site would be set up like this and I came to the conclusion that it was about money. Having been blacklisted by google, the site needed to generate income and so its primary focus is on ad revenue and pornographic content has the most traffic thus generating the most revenue. When the site started basically begging for money through supporter status I thought this would change but I'm convinced what actually motivated the site to change this was the tumblr exodus. People were finally asking questions. Being under increased scrutiny was the only reason that Shadman and the people like him were awkwardly shuffled behind the curtain. I found myself in the hilariously awkward position to then be supporting Shadman. The inconsistency and hypocrisy was more upsetting to me than the actual ethically dubious content he produced. The reasoning behind his ousting was entirely cowardly in nature and did not come from an ethical desire to make the site a better place but just to handwave it away for a better site image as soon as it wasn't convenient anymore. What happened to Everything By Everyone? It is not lost on me that many of those upper crust Newgrounds famous artists are friends with Shadman. This is the only site on the internet that markets itself to minors while primarily being funded by HARDCORE PORNOGRAPHY, and no one is questioning it. You're catering smut to kids. That's how you make your money. That's what I think this site is really about in the back end. I made a suggestion regarding how to do...you know the right thing and age gate content via a nsfw tag for an account and got this in reply: iu_315999_2341174.png

so functionally, they have the ability to do it. They could do the right thing, they just choose not to, presumably because it would cost them ad revenue. One day people will notice this discrepancy and once again they will be forced to change the site, not because its the right thing to do but because its an easy way to handwave the bad stuff away and reclaim the site image. It is a business after all, and people have no long term memory.


  • The Community Chat Incident: I did make an attempt to talk to people in the chat and I found myself squaring off with quite an unsavory fellow by the name of DJ-RI (spoilers: he gets banned). There's just something about Newgrounds that attracts insane people, and he was one of them. Unlike most insane people however he had actual skill in programming. The chat was/is run by an administrator by the name of Brent who I had spoken with on many occasions, and I considered a friendly acquaintance. DJ-RI apparently became buddy buddy with the guy and was allowed for some reason to integrate a bot he had written into the structure of the chat. I have absolutely no idea why this was allowed but it was. DJ-RI in a fit of ...I dont even know what to call it... arrogance attempted to use the information he gained from having a bot on the server to attempt to DOX me. I have a few passive safeguards in place to prevent such a thing from happening but he displayed accurate information of a dummy identity I use to derail such an attempt. He accessed information that I assume was from my IP to get a physical description and address information from a Facebook Account and proceeded to try to torment me with accurate dummy information. Despite the joy I gained from describing and pointing out to him he had the wrong identity and evidence proving he got it wrong, it ensured I would never willingly share any personal information on this site as its clearly incompetently handled. Immediately after this incident, (I was not the only person he attempted to DOX using this method.) the chat was shut down. I made a thread in the Help forum inquiring if the situation was dealt with and the thread was deleted without an answer. When the chat eventually came back it was Supporter only, DJ-RI was banned (he quit the site after throwing a hilariously pathetic fit in which he unironically called me a noob), and I found myself surprised to be blocked by Brent. I to this day have no idea why. I assume the situation that came from his negligence got him in trouble and perhaps he blames me for it?


Honestly, writing this stuff down now, those are the two big ones. The other ones seem trivial by comparison but I'm wearing my tinfoil hat over here completely sure that the User of the Day hasn't been random for months now. If I am right about that then _good_ it never should've been random to begin with.



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The Good: Despite It all


Maybe this will soften the constant rain of blows and criticism though... it isn't all bad. This is still the only place that feels right to me. The artists I've met (if you're still reading this somehow it probably includes you) have for the most part been really cool people and would be too numerous and awkward to list. I like to think I've grown a bit since I joined the site (as one should over a decade) and have mellowed out a little. Despite taking literally forever I've hit that meme number of 1000 followers. I couldn't care less. I only ever create art for myself and for my friends. I do not play the little buddy buddy social climbing games people attempting to get clout do. I'm not nice, I'm not trying to get famous, I'm not trying to make a living, hell I'm not even trying to save face. A decade of being on a site though, that's something to reflect on. If you follow me, I have absolutely no clue why, but you do you I guess. Expect more abominations in the future.


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Tags:

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Comments

yeah I never fit into dA either. I was ready to just prioritize my work in Discord/Instagram, but NG immediately seemed like a better option than both combined (I still keep instagram on the side though)

Congratulations on the milestone. NG as a forum community was never something I leaned into. I just stick to making stuff.

Problems of the future, past and present. FOREVER.

I'm creeping up on ten years too, now that you mention it. The traffic and adrev stuff I can't really comment on, but I also can't forget that Tom actually added my school's senior showcase - an in-person event in a tiny podunk town deep in the woods of upstate NY - to the site's calendar when I (possibly drunkenly) told him about it. So that was cool.
I think that Newgrounds functions well for many artists as a transitory place where they can develop their own unique voices, because the greatest strength I'd always seen in its community has been variety and a constant quest for originality. It's been the place where creators of all levels and disciplines could go to hatch their own stories, much moreso than other sites. Its community is just close enough, despite this inherent disparity, to keep from forming cliques like other platforms, which is great because fuck cliques.

I dont blame you for not remembering given the circumstances but DJ-RI tried to DOX you too.

lmao, what a stooge

You've said a lot of stuff so I'll address a few things.

1. Shad's art got progressively worse over time, going from being an edgelord to straight up catering to pedophiles. You're right that the old art hub gave him a bigger spotlight because it showcased popular content, while the new art hub no longer does that. That change came well after Shad was no longer active here.

2. When NG is missing a feature, it's not because we're making a deliberate effort to not have it, it's because we have two developers who are spread extremely thin. For example multi-author and proper multi-image posting in the Art Portal have been a top priority for years now but still haven't made it out the door. Our backlog of features traces back well over a decade. This is why everything isn't exactly how it should be at any given time but I think the site continues to progress in the right direction.

3. You're saying that NG makes our money by getting kids to view adult content. The adult ads on Newgrounds require visitors to go to those websites and spend money; kids don't do that and there isn't revenue being made from kids stumbling into adult content. We're also continuing to make it harder to stumble into, much of that goes back to #2. Filtering has been gradually expanding to more and more pages of the site with each ongoing update. Somewhat related, the long-term goal is for NG to be 100% ad free, so our focus is on paying supporters, not ads.

4. I think you'd enjoy yourself more if you stopped treating the forums as some sort of burden you've taken on. Maybe not everyone wants to hang out with the regulars in the forums, that's their choice. There are lots of pockets of NG community spread throughout various Discord chats and most people prefer those small pockets of community.

You also act like nothing has been done on behalf of the forums but the forums were completely overhauled to work on mobile, integrated with notifications, updated to allow emote responses and to compose messages with a rich text editor, including multi-image support. It's actually a lot of development effort when you add it up.

If you are limited in time, the important part is really just the last paragraph, everything else is just addressing your response.

It's complicated to answer something like this and I had to search myself for a while to think about how best to approach it. It feels kind of futile to write this but I also feel like I have to in order to get some kind of closure.

Through the years you've always taken the time to respond, and that's something I would've included as a positive in my assessment of my experience this past decade but it would've been awkward after basically calling you a suit and a coward. I just want to voice my appreciation in your presence here despite what I said in even taking the time to read, let alone respond to something like this. You were probably hoping for something more positive when you clicked that link. I have no idea how often you face direct criticism though I am sure you are buffeted by every permutation of suggestion in every waking moment. I feel like few content creators are willing to risk openly criticizing you directly on account of how much influence you can potentially have. Yet I feel like I have nothing to lose and thus nothing to fear.

1. You seem to feel there was a gradual change in Shadmans art... I feel like there was one year (2009) when Shadman was just an edgy artist. By the next year he was already drawing kid Link getting raped in the ass. It's still there, go check it out haha. The changes that were made to the way the portal displays art DID come well after Shad was no longer active here, that's the problem. It came well after Shadman had drained all he could out of the site and he no longer needed to post here, I would call it a parasitic relationship but I know that the site benefited from the traffic he generated, even if he especially in the end benefited little in posting his work here. It was like that for years featuring his content and you by doing nothing were complicit in that system. The crackdown really only came down on those types of people as soon as people in other places started talking about it and it started impacting the image of the site, as it was mysteriously ignored or defended by everyone when it was cool to post on the portal. (s/)Its just drawings after all, how can it be bad? Haha. (/s) That is why I called you what I did. Creating the curated system of the art portal that you have today is much better than the old system. You fixed the issue but it was broken for years. This post was a decade long retrospective, not a summary of what is today.

2. I agree with you that the site is progressing for the better, it's the speed of progression that is really the issue. Having emojis, notifications and being able to post two images at once should not be the cutting edge for a site that's 26 years old even if, on an individual basis of it being literally ONE guy making it, it's very impressive. I can't imagine that its easy or cheap manipulating stuff that's so old to be more modernized. Gonna state the obvious here and say maybe you need more guys or better guys or faster guys or maybe the two guys you do have need more resources? I assume you've already thought of this many years before I even joined the site and simply cant afford more manpower. I dont know what goes on in the back end but it seems to the layman like me that something isn't being run right, even if there's literally only two guys.

It's a bit moot though for a following point (4).

3. As assuredly amusing as the conversation would be regarding kids using this site I feel like it wouldn't lead anywhere constructive so I'll just say that it's funny how the definition of a what a "kid" is changes as you get older isn't it? I hope you didn't take my accusation literally. Regarding the flow of income though the goal is a 100% ad free focus on paying supporters, not ads right? There's a huge flaw in that though.

4. Almost all of the benefits for donating to the site are forum based perks.

.....The forums stink. (aside from the music portal, I feel that one is by far the most curated and controlled. It also has the most active mod presence, curious.) There are some very basic things that could be done to improve them without actually implementing any new technology.
You seem to have given up on the idea of people establishing themselves in the forum culture in an attempt to make it better and support the outsourcing of the Newgrounds experience to unrelated and fragmented third party communities. I understand you cant compete with social media with what you have, but it seems like you've completely given up on us. I have been a primary user of the Art Forum for the past ten years. The animation forum, which should be the heart of the site is completely abandoned, there are no Regulars there and at least as far as I've been around it has never functioned. You posted there once to a friend of mine that you lamented the fact that people were using discords instead of the forum, what changed since then? Content creators who have a vested interest in Newgrounds are the lifeblood of your site, but your strategy seems to be courting twitter artists who already have an established following presumably so they can bring their work and their followers here. Even if you were successful at that, this is just another platform (that can't compete with Youtube or Twitter in regards to raw exposure and money) to them. Another stop on their multiplatform content dump. Whether I would ENJOY newgrounds more by parasitizing it isn't a consideration for me, I am here to try make NEWGROUNDS better, not gain clout in my discord server or to redundantly proselytize the artists and animators on Newgrounds. What I enjoy doing is making the art forum a better place to post. What hurts is that it seems like the staff has given up on the forums and people like me give up and leave. They're probably smarter for it too but I dont feel like I _fit_ anywhere else.
--------------------------------------------TLDR-----------------------------------------
The various changes made with development projects have had little to no impact on the culture of the forums, which is really what my post is complaining about because I am a forum user.
You seem to want me to abandon the idea of improving the forum. I want to make Newgrounds a better place. Give me a real direction to point my efforts, please. I know I am just a mediocre version of Gatekid who objectively offers little to your site with my art, music and games, but you follow me here so you must think I at least have some potential. What do you want me to do on Newgrounds going forward?

I still have idea what to do about the dang art forums, here’s to many more years of us all messing with the kids who ask the same question 5 times a week

That aside, fricken congrats!!!! I’m not sure if I qualify as one of those art forum friends (tho I feel I am right?), but either way I’m glad I got to be a part of this community too!!

What a blast!

cool let’s collab again soon

Congrats on the 1K and ten years!

This really adds some backstory to your recent Incremental Improvement Club post hmm.. I don't dabble in art that much, so hopefully it'd seem natural that's not a forum I personally frequent that much, but the few times I've stopped by it seemed alright. A lot of showcases. Some other general threads. Functionally, I wonder how you could encourage activity further...

Automatically create showcase topics with user artworks as they're submitted?
Allow users to link specifically to showcase threads via their profiles, similar to the collaboration links?
Just add a forum link to the art portal?

The latter seems simple enough, if it'd help...

The writing forum seems to be in a similar state. Not so active. A lot of them too. General's the big stream. Maybe the age of individual forums here is over; it'd be just as well to merge them? Or better little activity in each than none? Better you still have the venues, lacking users or no, than none at all?

I'm a little surprised you see the site as you seem to see it otherwise though. Wherever I go here lately there's always something going on. Can't keep up with it. Artist news is booming, the rankings are getting fun again, General's a new place entirely with the new userbase, we recently got two-pass and backup features and everything... I'm pretty happy with the way we seem to be headed.Woth Tumblr wave, the Twitter wave, the YouTube wave, the FNF wave most recently... the past few years have been a surprising surge. Personally: this is the only social community I'm on. No Twitter. Discord only if I have too. NG's more than enough.

Hope the art forum livens up a bit too somehow someway.

never knew the site was black listed