i guess im committing a lot of art crimes then
Joined on 3/4/08
- Level:
- 9
- Exp Points:
- 820 / 900
- Exp Rank:
- 83,234
- Vote Power:
- 5.13 votes
- Art Scouts
- 9
- Rank:
- Civilian
- Global Rank:
- > 100,000
- Blams:
- 14
- Saves:
- 8
- B/P Bonus:
- 0%
- Whistle:
- Normal
- Trophies:
- 10
- Medals:
- 189
- Supporter:
- 3y 7d
I wouldnt say so, youve got a non standardized sort of cartoony thing you are doing... I also dont really know what you mean about art "crimes". Its not a crime to make bad art and have horrible anatomy, its just really silly when you dont know when a human female looks like and yet its all you draw. My main point in this journal entry is that people should look at people, especially women in sexual positions first, if they want to draw said women.
also having this whole 'yeah haters come at me haha faggots' 'your bad anatomy makes you autistic!!' doesnt help you make your point
I like to be overly vigorous in my assessments regarding horrible art. Is this mature? No. Does it make me feel good? Yes. Is the art still horrible? Yes.
I doubt I'll add anything new or insightful to this post but here goes. As I'm sure you know, exaggeration is part of making cartoons charters. Take for example the purple hair one next to your name; who can realistically stretch their mouth back to their eye or above their nose? I like the smile but its not realistic. Artist often learn by looking at others art, but without good references you either wind up repeating what everyone else does or with girls that look like boys. JettyJetJet is a good reference, but like you said unknown. Also some are motivate by what pays.
For the" Maximun powaaah"picture, the right arm hides one of your points, that being the small waist line is burred together with the right arm, thus making the gap look like a glare on body. The glare line (or garter hook) on the left leg enforces this. I'd recommend, right arm be in the air like the left arm. Or those really are glares in which case my mistake.
Theres a difference between exaggeration, style, cartooning, and a blatant total disregard to what a human being looks like. I draw the line at "has no human muscles or bones".
To be honest the people you slated as autistic/laughingstocks is your opinion entirely, some of them are very successful, and i personally do not care if anatomy is exactly correct to real humans, it can be stylised, without variations and quirky originality everything becomes a bit black and white, wrong and right, art should not be about that.
Their success isnt in question, they wouldnt be on the wall if they werent successful. Stylization is different than ignoring anatomy entirely, and mistakes like that are not quirks, its just shoddy art.
Their success is the main reason why they dont improve at all. Its funny how it works like that.
Their popularity is based entirely off of the subject matter and not on any actual artistic aptitude, which is fine, except when you are me and you hate horribly drawn pornographic figures.
Well then, each to their own i guess.
There's nothing wrong with ignoring anatomy entirely. Look at the fucking classics. Look at what it means to be a cartoonist. Also, cut the shit and either stop being so jealous or just come out & say it.
Part of the reason they're all so damn popular is because of the disregard for anatomy & ridiculous exaggeration. This is why we like them. You don't? Well shut the fuck up & move on with your life like an intelligent human being. Because of this attitude you have, you've pushed potential fans away from YOUR work. So yeah...brilliant post. :b
Cartooning does not involve ignoring anatomy. Do you know what anatomy is or what it means? What 'classics' are you referring to? Even old fashioned noodle people animation retains consistent (exaggerated) anatomy. Theres nothing wrong with exaggeration of anatomy, make huge swollen breasts is different than drawing two circles and putting two smaller circles in them for nipples, thats symbolism, not anatomy. Its what a child does when it draws.
No offence but john K. Ralph Bakshi and even the great Richard Williams draw boobs messed up sometimes, just look at their work. Ralph Bakshi and John K. for sure, they may get them right most of the time but people are only human.
Even Richard Williams said he didn't do the breasts right for Jessica rabbit in Who framed roger rabbit, one of the most sexiest cartoon women! (Next to Holli Would from Cool World) for natural reasons!, saying "making them move naturally wouldn't be sexy enough".
Now I know you're talking about art and not animation, but my point being, is that you don't have to take into account perfect anatomy as long as you're achieving what you wanna achieve. that's where style comes from.
I think its important to note the difference between drawing art, and drawing pornography. Is pornography art? yes. But it is also illustration. Illustrations have a purpose, and pornography's purpose is to get people off. To do that you need to make your pornographic figures relatable to humans. To do that you need to instill your subject with humanity, human aspects, such as anatomy and realistic human gestures. Those are literally the only 2 things we have at our disposal as artists to make a figure look human and have it relate to us at all. Everything else is in the air. Without one of those two things the figure does not look right to us, its a distracting -error- that is not part of a persons style and it is immediately obvious to us when something is wrong. I'm not asking for perfection on either of those two things, they are difficult things to master. I am however asking for people in the pornographic field to at least -attempt- to capture some essence of humanity when they draw something for the purpose of humans to masturbate to, be it human gestures in a cartoony but stable and sensical style as Jab! does, or the more anatomy oriented Hentai works from japan. The style isnt important.
@Speedo when he said "but just saying Fatelogic is autistic isn't going to benefit him at all"
I've legitimately critiqued him in the past.
Spedmallet: It could definitely use some work. The first thing I noticed was that the hips were very under-pronounced. Second the breasts were slightly too high and a bit unnatural looking. Third the legs are overall disproportionate- thighs too big, knees too small.
Fatelogic: Sadly, I don't agree with you at all, but I appreciate the intention pal.
So now I just treat him like the autistic faggot he is.
<a href="http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/fatelogic/cruel-revelation">http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/fatelogic/c ruel-revelation</a>
augh, my soul.
I understand the point you are making but i think you are way too overzealous and its pretty disappointing to see an artist be so cruel to other artist by putting up a "wall of shame".
Thats one thing i noticed as soon as i started submitting to newgrounds,
generally artists do not rip on other artists,
and no offence, this is not a cheap shot at you or anything like that but i have looked through your artwork and you need some practise on anatomy yourself, probably more so then most of the artists on your "wall of shame"
i hope i havn't offended you too much, i just had to get that off my chest
Criticism is part of being an artist. Some critics are very subtle, some are not. Some are extremely rude to get their point across. Simon Cowell cant -do- anything worthwhile, but it doesnt stop him from slinging shit or being right most of the time about who he is being an asshole to and why. I love how meek and sorry you seem about the idea of telling somebody that they need to improve at something, this is why horrible people exist, because nobody will tell them how bad they are. You shouldnt baby people, they wont think you are serious. I know I have alot of work to do on my own art, I do need to work on alot more than just my anatomy as well. I admit that, and try to improve. You should see my NG art thread. The artists on the top part of the wall see nothing wrong with their own work, they have lost the ability to. They dont change their approach or try to make anything better the next time, it is always the same thing the same way over and over.
i was tempted to just rip on you but i think i'll go the other way and be nice.
Simon Cowell is paid to do what he does, he was hired to sling shit on people, its all for show.
You called me meek and other artist horrible people, do you really think that is the way to go about it?
You can criticise without so much hate, its easy to be nice, you should take note of the Buddist quote
“Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared.”
in other words if you present your constuctive criticism in a nice, polite and respectful way,
people like the shadling wont tell you to "get your head out of your arse", they might just show you some respect and spread some happiness into the world.
I dont really comment on artists as people. Who they are is not important to me. I will not comment on shadmans pedophile gore and what kind of person it would take to enjoy getting off to it, or any other subject matter, that's for other people to complain about. It isnt important to me and doesnt factor into my judgement of their work. What is important to me is having some baseline standards for illustration. Particularly pornographic illustration involving human bodies. So no, I do not call artists horrible people, I call them horrible artists, or having really ridiculous mental tendencies to ignore reality when it comes to their art. I'll let the friends unfortunate or fortunate enough to know them judge them as people. Regarding you, I see no problem with calling you meek for not giving me real honest criticism, you wont even really tell me what you think, instead you are watering down yourself to 'be nice'. That doesnt help me. It doesnt help anybody. The people on my list are not really interested in improving, their years worth of art that looks exactly the same as it always has is a testament to this. Constructive criticism is wasted on them. The wall exists regardless if I had made it or not, you think other artists aren't aware of people like these and don't constantly make fun of them in private and public places? They do. Looking at bad pornography for laughs is like a past time for alot of us. I want these people to get better. Shadman seems to be applying himself to get better. Nobody else is.
Ah the grand irony.
So it seems your major anatomical gripes are not those of strange positioning or awkward angles, because god knows you use those enough:
Jaded Adventuress's matrix back bend and hilarious attempt at foreshortening with the sword.
Noire's bizarre standing position in Noire and Onis
The left space ninja's impossibly awkward sword slash pose and the right pirate's mid air splits in the space pirates vs space ninjas picture.
Etc.
Nor does it seem to be against overblown male musculature or proportions, because again:
Ork Berserker
Machias: Stone Artisan
The large horned guy in Character studies.
In Fact, basically every male character you have is disproportionately massive and bulging,even the covetous spirit who some how manages to be massive and bulging with nothing but a giant swollen head.
No, it seems that you have a particular type of gripe, name that of females with, how should we say this..."expanded" proportions. Fair, it's true they're not really anatomically correct unless they're Brazilian girls with implants; but here's the thing: the fact that you seem single-mindedly obsessed with calling people out on this, combined with your own insistence on drawing a particular body type makes this all seem like self loathing driven projection.
The Grand irony I spoke of here is that you are by no means an anatomically correct artist. Your anime eyes, exaggerated mouths, often slightly too short legs, your strange posing and "Muscled-via-bicycle-pump" men, they're all examples of your own failings to come anywhere near what your screaming criticisms demands. And yet you feel the need to browse newgrounds, attacking the popular and the unknown with equal bitterness.
I won't try and guess where this sort of behavior comes from, since it could be anything from a desperate attempt to reenforce your own fragile ego to legitimate attempts to provide criticism that simply come off as bile and arrogance. But I do wonder about why you feel the need to post things like this, if only because , by posting it, you draw attention to your own work, and it's lack of adherence to the principles you so viciously attack others for not following. A strange act indeed.
You seem to be an intelligent individual, so I'm sure you are aware I never claimed to be a great artist or a master anatomist. Those things you say about my art are true. My own scathing gripes are applied to myself before they are applied to others, it would be very silly of me if they weren't. I have many weaknesses, one of them being a pretty incorrect away of drawing gestures, proportions, perspective, anatomy, color, all the flaws in the fundamentals you can think of I probably have in my own work. I see them, just as you see some of them. I am working on it, and I ask you to not judge my art wholly on what you see on Newgrounds. Newgrounds is an abysmal place to post artwork for any constructive feedback, so these things -are- rather dated. Most people cannot see what you see, and even if they can they dont care enough to say so. The success of these artists is not based on the quality of their artwork, which im sure you know.
The popular pornographers here cannot see their own flaws, they have lost the ability to, or they do not care about improving anymore because they already make money doing work at the level they are at. They have a willful ignorance concerning criticism for the most part and its not doing the people around them any favors. The cycle just serves to reciprocate buttpats for poorly done art.
This post serves as a lone beacon of "Hey I see your work and I think its garbage and so do alot of other people, they just don't care enough to tell you." It's also for my amusement as well, admittedly.
There is no irony you see, my gripes are not even based on anatomy, its more complicated than that. I expect no one to be a perfect anatomist, I expect no one to be perfect at gestures, composition, ect. I do expect people who have influence over budding young artists like these popular people listed, to be responsible and have some pride in their work by having a commitment to improving themselves to raise the quality of art as a whole, so when I see some kid with a quote like "I'll be the next Shadman." they wont be aspiring to be drawing completely broken inhuman figures. Its also about effective illustration, which is what pornography is. Pornography is not usually Art. Its art, specifically illustration. A woman spread eagle with her tongue sticking out and her anus where her spine should be is not an effective piece of pornography, and stuff like that offends me, not because of the subject matter, but because of the willful disregard to even attempting to make it look human.
Ok, being critical of other people's art is fine, giving them suggestions on how they could improve themselves is just fine, but with this attitude you have, all the name calling, taking the time to compile a comprehensive list of anatomy offenders, that's just, I don't even know what to call it. Sad? Sure. The saddest part is that you're totally right most of the time, but with that attitude you got, the people that you're critiquing probably mostly just blow you off and don't actually take what you have to say into consideration, thereby completely rendering your comments useless. Personally, I wasn't put off by your review, but I came here and saw what kind of stuff you belt out, and it just made me sad. We're supposed to be a community here, but that's impossible if there's jackasses like you running around. If you want to see people's art improve, be professional (and maybe improve a little bit yourself). Now again, I'm not saying this cause I'm butthurt or mad, I'm just sad that a fellow artist would take so much time just to make people feel bad about their art when you could just as easily still give the same critiques without being such an asshole. I totally agree about Shadman though, that guy really needs to learn how to draw tits.
How much of the journal and comments did you read? Your concerns are probably put to rest if you read the comments. These people cannot use constructive critique anymore, that's a core part of the reason why they can never change. Thats why they are here. I gave you a fair and honest review because you are not like these people, you have the capacity to learn and listen to people still because you havnt become hopelessly lost in the money or in your fans. Yet. You seem smart though, I hope that kind of thing never happens to you.
*Sighs* it's a shame there's no board for "All Time Bitch". Then again competing with you would require a lot of work.
It's alright to have your own interpretations of artwork, its also nice to give some friendly advice. But to make a board devoted to trashing and criticizing other artist is really a bitch thing to do.
I mean, have you look at your own work? I seriously think you have no right to be commenting on other's when you yourself are in need of improvement. Your elf girl for example, you claim you messed up on her boobs nothing about the pencil neck or that she looks like a creature from a horror show.
All the people you bashed Shademan, Fatelogic and many others have far more talent then you do and far more supporters.
Oh, and don't worry about my feedback I'm just giving you a "friendly review" like you did to them.
Read the comments. Also, I never claimed to be friendly to anyone so i dont know why you are quoting that as if it has some inherent meaning..... straw man some more.
Hold on, I have a question. You keep saying that the only thing that would make a drawing sexy to a person is if it was relatable to real life people, but what if someone (like myself) is honestly more attracted to cartoon characters that have whacked out anatomy, like Adventure Time, than real people? Wouldn't that just make your argument fly out the window? I'm honestly just curious.
You are probably attracted to the sexual gestures the cartoon characters have, which is human body language, one of the two things artists can use to make a figure that relates to human beings. Its the only way completely inhuman things can still convey a message we can understand without expressly saying what their intentions are. Things that have no relatable human qualities have no logical reason for making normal people sexually aroused, as theres nothing to get aroused about.
A photo of a rock on the ground might get some rock fetishists off, but it wont get Timmy off, unless the rock looks vaguely like some breasts, or the rock curves in a way that reminds him of a woman in a sultry pose.
Never underestimate the power of gestures, they're even more important than anatomy at making an effective illustration. Its something we both as artists would do well to work on.
You are the angriest feminist I have ever seen on NG.
I dont think angry feminists would appreciate the way I draw female figures any more than I appreciate the way these guys do.
So what are you even talking about? I dont think feminism means what you think it does.
Hiii I bookmarked this.
I agree with everything. This is actually motivating me to learn proper anatomy, can you believe it? I don't know any sources, so I just stand in front of a mirror and try to remember how my hands, knees, neck, waist, ribs, back look from different sides and when bent at different angles. The hardest are knees and elbows and hands - they morph REAL hard even at slightest angles of bending or turning.
Also the problem is that I'm a fucking male *laughs*. And I can't record certain poses (not sexual, don't worry), especially from the back, using a mirror (and it'll take a hell of time to find those poses elsewhere).
So I'm thinking about slowly going from a mirror to some other sources. Do you know any?
About shading/perspective - I'm expecting these to somehow get learned on their own, during the process.
Working off of references is one of the best things you can do to learn how things actually look.
http://artists.pixelovely.com/practice-tools/figure-drawing/
http://www.referencereference.com/index.html
google image search is pretty helpful too, though i suggest 'acquiring' art books that are specifically about human anatomy any way you can.
Thanks!
If I see an art book somewhere I'll buy it!
http://cghub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3199 here man. probably stuff that will last you years.
I don't know if this me bring overly positive, but I think they can improve if you give them enough criticism and encouragement. Although there are definitely people who are really stuck the way they are. I personally try not to insult any stranger's art style even if it's horrible beyond comprehension and induces vomiting every time I see it since I feel like it would not accomplish anything. Not that I'm condemning this kind of action of yours since it's funny and entertaining. I won't judge you the same way I try not to insult other artisans.
Though I must say and be honest that the people on this wall have a dreadful sense of the female anatomy so much so that I might want to cry and curl up into a ball. I don't get why they try to make attempts at over sexualizing their art like this. I can't tell if this is genuinely arousing for some people but for me it is just completely strange and quaint. I'm speaking a bit like a hypocrite now. Haha.
It really just boils down to the mentality of the person. Think about it, if you had throngs of people telling you your stuff was great, what would you make of the couple people telling you stuff about improving your art? You would just think they were haters or jealous. For some people its completely hopeless.
Speedo
yeah um i get your attitude about not caring if you come across as a jerk when critiquing here, but just saying Fatelogic is autistic isn't going to benefit him at all, he's going to see it as a 10 year old tr011 4ch@n hax0r XD comment and get on with his day, his art not affected by the statement at all.
And I am of course critical of my own art, I know its full of proportional flaws, and I have been trying to improve wether it looks that way or not, same can be said for any of those other artists. I don't know why you would assume we aren't now just because we're a bit popular on the internet or whatever. Our art will only improve significantly from negative reviews that go into specifics about whats wrong and why, don't expect any of us to become Michelangelo's overnight from saying "ur artz = 9/11 LOL"
And I get style and anatomy are 2 very different things, but style is going to be what influences the anatomy in the pic which is why no one complains about works by the likes of Picasso or Dali being anatomically incorrect (no, I'm not comparing a bunch of amateur hentai artists to those guys, just making a point) So I'd always see style as a more important factor than anatomy.
sry just my 2 cents bye u can lay in2 me now or whatevz
Template88
Thank you for the sane well thought out reply. Admittedly calling Fatelogic autistic is quite politically incorrect and inappropriate but it is a sign of my frustration with artists like him...and you. Please take this as me saying this with all the kindness/respect i can muster... but if your idea of trying to improve consists of drawing the same thing in the same exact way every time, I am afraid you do not understand the concept of how to improve at all. From my perspective this is exactly what you do, what you continue to do and what you have been doing for quite a long, long time. This works out for you somehow, and you remain a popular artist through some mysterious internet powers, which lends itself to you feeling content with your art, because nobody will complain to you about it apparently. This leads me to my second point, in a world where I instead of making a smarmy comment about your figures in my journal made a complex detailed report about what was wrong with them and how to improve as a review in every thing you submitted, why would you listen to me? You have a horde of people showing you everyday that they like what you do. You yourself seem pretty satisfied with your art, or else you would change it, and you know what thats fine, if you like your own art and why should I dictate what you should draw like? Do you see why somebody like me telling you how to improve would not do anything to help you? The problem lies within the cycle that you are trapped inside.